Six Smart Women Discussing Doctor Who

VerityEpisode59The season finale has finally arrived! Or part one of it has, anyway. It’s safe to say that most of the Verities are preeeeety excited about it. Join Deb, Erika, Liz, and Tansy as we  enthusiastically flail and squee and jabber about all there is to love and speculate about “Dark Water”. There’s a lot to chew on here. There’s also a bit of a Skype lag, which causes some simultaneous talking, but that doesn’t stop us from gleefully recounting our favorite bits and examining what (we think) is going on.

What did you think about “Dark Water”? We know the response wasn’t entirely positive, and as always, we’re interested in all your opinions! (As long as they’re phrased kindly and don’t insult those who disagree, anyway. Of course, you guys are awesome and pretty much always stick to that!)  So please leave a comment and let us know what you thought of these revelations and why.

Can it be Saturday already please?

^E

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Download or listen now (runtime 1:31:39) 

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Comments on: "Verity! Episode 59 – Dark Waterdeep" (53)

  1. BeckyB said:

    Double check your podcast at 1:30. (you can delete this comment)

  2. My hope is that we get a slate of episodes of Gomez as the Master/Mistress.

    “More, please.”

    I would be horribly disappointed if we don’t see her as the Master again

  3. […] Verity! Episode 59 – Dark Waterdeep WHOOGLE shared this story from VerityPodcast.com. The season finale has finally arrived! Or part one of it has, anyway. It’s safe to say that most of the Verities are preeeeety excited about it. Join Deb, Erika, Liz, and Tansy as we  enthusiastically flail and squee and jabber about all… […]

  4. Loved Dark Water, and the Missy reveal.

    It kind of felt like we should have known all along, but it also feels good and right. I’ll be very disappointed if the rumours I’ve heard are true, that the Master is going to regenerate again next episode into a man! Let’s run with this female Master and explore that to the fullest! Let’s have Missy become a recurring villain in the next season. Maybe not EVERY episode, but it will be fun to know she’s still out there and we can look for her popping up again.

    Yup, great episode, and I really hope part 2 doesn’t mess things up! Come on Moffat, you can do it!

  5. microtoast said:

    I have to throw in some support for Deb and the preference for the Master remaining the Master, and not the Mistress. Specifically the idea that “master” is no less gendered than “mistress,” which I disagree with. If you go back to academic titles, which is where doctor and master come from in the first place, you never see “mistress’s” degrees. I have a Master’s degree myself, and I am female. I’m in no way a mistress because of it – using terms in different arenas totally changes their semantics and connotations.

  6. I’m with Liz: in spite of having seen all the promotional material, I forgot about the Cybermen. I did get it about thirty seconds or so before the door; it just took the ‘organic matter’ thing that long to click. 🙂

  7. BeckyB said:

    Deb, you are not the only one who picked up a religious subtext in the Doctors assurance to Clara. I picked up that subtext starting in Kill the Moon with Clara’s line, “you, my friend, making me scared,” and this episode was the resolution of that. This whole exchange had caused me to ponder man’s relationship to a supreme creator, and I’m glad that I wasn’t the only one who picked up on that.

    This was a wonderful episode that filled my whovian heart with sunshine and rainbows. Well, in the end anyway, the first 10 minutes had me reaching for the tissues.

    On the music front, some great obvious music clues given here with the Cyberman theme, and variations on the masters theme played at key times. We haven’t heard Clara’s theme since the melancholy rendition in The Mummy.

  8. Another here who totally forgot about the Cybermen, despite seeing/reading all spoilers/promotions/photos, etc. My husband spotted the Cyberman eye in the logo instantly but kept quiet, and I honestly didn’t catch on until we actually SAW a Cyberman. So apparently my memory is absolute crap, but it sure made the plot thrilling and unexpected. 🙂

  9. I also was less impacted by Clara’s grief scenes. I didn’t buy for a second that Danny would stay dead, and her reaction seemed unreal to me. I realize now that we’re so used to grand displays of grief from Amy and Rose, and Clara’s reaction was probably more human.

    I completely agree about the Doctor having trouble with emotions. I think his harshness toward her, insulting her appearance for example, is at least in part an attempt to avoid being affected by her emotions and keep them at arms length.

  10. lbphilly said:

    A few quick reactions to this episode:

    There was just enough foreshadowing for me to anticipate Danny’s death. I found Clara’s reaction and the Clara / Doctor / volcano episode to be emotionally searing. Of course she is owed; how many times did she save the Doctor? I thought the Doctor’s line, “Clara, my Clara” just before she pitched the seventh key was a callback to something Eleven said in The Time of the Doctor, and his beyond-betrayal speech was a remarkable contrast to Clara’s reaction to his Kill-the-Moon betrayal (and Danny’s it’s-a-deal-breaker ultimatum earlier, for that matter).

    Unfortunately, I had to stop watching just as the white noise started and when I came back I felt as though I’d dropped into a different episode. But it was all good.

    Except Missy. She has been grating on me since she first turned up, and the entirely predictable reveal of her as The Master was no surprise. I don’t much care for The Master, either, in any of the incarnations I’ve seen so far, with the possible except of Jonathan Pryce. I know the Verities are very much on-board with her characterization and MIchelle Gomez’s performance, and I’m sure that Gomez played this as directed, but it just doesn’t do it for me. The sooner they stuff her in a Dark Water Tank the happier I’ll be.

    Just as an aside…through the grief scenes, I thought I heard the initial notes of the Clara theme begin tentatively and then break off, which I found devastatingly poignant.

    • BeckyB said:

      Nice catch. When Clara is standing in the middle of the road there is a tiny hint, like the first two notes of her theme, which then resolves into something much sadder.

      • lbphilly said:

        Thanks. I don’t know everyone’s themes, but Clara’s has stuck with me. I think there are another one or two one-note starts that then go no further.

  11. The scene with SEB saying “We’ve got a burner!” was very similar to a Monty Python sketch set in an undertakers. A client with a dead relative was persuaded out of burying or burning, both nasty it was explained, and he eventually agreed to an alternative suggestion. At this point, one of the undertakers called out to someone at the back of the funeral parlour, “We’ve got an eater!”

  12. Bill Woodrow said:

    I loved the pod-cast, thanks again team (he says attempting to avoid gender pronouns *grin*).

    It tends to come in at sometime around 1.20am ish here in Aus and I had a very bad night getting to sleep. This pod-cast was no help as I had to listen to every word!

    I love Dark Water and am looking forward to next Sunday morning for ep 12 – yes I know the title but no *spoilers* here right.

    I had one humorous thought about the MISSY Robot (Fake??) reveal. I just thought HAHA the Master has developed a Chameleon Mark II and MISSY is the Chameleon being controlled by a tiny John Simm stuck in a box somewhere – we would never have to actually see Simm as he has pretty well stated that he would never come back to Doctor Who ever but the idea tickled me.

    I adore Gomez and have no trouble with the Master being a Mistress (although I can see all sorts of issues if we go down the “Are You Being Served” pussy jokes routine but hopefully in the enlightened 2010s this could never happen right?)

    I agree with Liz I really cannot stand the new Doctor Who Cygnus/our universe Cybermen. I too am an 80s child and the Earthshock ones are just simply the best design ever – especially with the moving silver chins.

    I really hope we get to see Missy with her own TARDIS and that the Rani can make a return next season.

    PS On a completely different tangent can someone please explain to me why the Vogans did not have a few glitter guns lying around in storage? I know it would have been an awfully quick adventure and not much of a revenge but it is something that has bothered me for a long time.

    • Richard S. said:

      The Vogans were, quite clearly, Glam Rockers. Their glitter guns were stolen by the Movellans in retaliation for the whole “Disco Sucks” campaign. True Fact!

  13. Richard S. said:

    Father’s Day, Earthshock, Shada, Dyson Spheres, Star Wars… You people keep on reading my mind! Stop it. Stop it right now!

    Yes, Star Wars, specifically in the form of Dave Prowse, who played the Green Cross Code Man in British childrens’ TV road safety adverts from 1975 onwards. Follow The Green Cross Code, kids! Don’t be like Mr Pink and get all smooshed by a car that “came out of nowhere” according to one eyewitness, a car that was later described as having the appearance of an Edwardian roadster but with a distinctly anti-Pertwee colour scheme and an engine noise that was more “Vwoorp-Vwoorp” than “Vroom-Vroom”.

    (Wiki says Pertwee also did a 1970’s Green Cross Code campaign on TV, but I barely remember it. Only selective viewing of commercial ITV in the 1970’s, mine was more a BBC childhood, as you do.)

    I’m glad you spent a lot of time analysing the Clara-Doctor confrontation scene, as I thought it was by far the strongest part of the ep, and that the rest paled in comparison.

    What I mean is… Okay, Clara stealing the keys from all round the TARDIS (including from *someone’s* copy of The Time Traveller’s Wife on the bookcase!), maybe it made no sense in terms of previous Moffat-scripted canon, Tennant being able to open the doors with a click of his fingers. But the dialogue and performance levels were so powerful they erupted like a volcano, hah!, out of the TV. And one of the “key reasons” for this was the structure of Clara asking a straight question, and the Doctor giving (for the most part) a direct answer every time.

    So, by the time the TARDIS took off, I genuinely felt as excited as I used to as a kid hearing that noise on TV.

    And then the ep kind of dragged to a halt for me. Partly it was because I felt Danny had been through enough weirdness with the Doctor & Clara that he should’ve been more suspicious of Seb’s coyness & evasions, at least in their first scene together.

    I get irritated by this type of plot device, not so much with the person (Seb) who continually refuses to answer a direct question, more with the questioner (Danny) who enables it to happen, in order for the writer to prolong the time til the reveal. It’s the one aspect of Shada that I disliked, with the Doc & Romana & Chris Parsons all casually allowing Prof Chronotis to dash off to make tea after he’d forgotten the pretty darned vital questions they’d each asked him.

    I worked out what was in the dark water when Dr Chang explained it, waited for other cool stuff to happen before the Cyberman reveal, waited largely in vain, got a few great Capaldi one-liners, a bit of nonsense from Missy, whom I was beginning to believe had to be not Romana, but Susan (a deranged & incestuous Susan, admittedly).

    The Missy Reveal would have had zero impact if she was a brand new character, and little impact outside fandom if she was a Classic character who hadn’t already been reintroduced to the millions of casual viewers of New Who. Susan appeared in last year’s Name of the Doctor, albeit briefly.

    So, it’s a relief Missy has finally outed herself (okay, no, wrong word, too loaded). On DW Extra, Moffat was enthusing about Michelle’s stratospheric (Moff’s word) take on the role, so it looks like she’s here to stay, at least once a year, and I’m hoping she’ll be like Clara has been this season, finally breaking free of the standard-issue big box of Moffaty mystery woman tropes in order to become a fully functioning human, er, Gallifreyan. I’m sure there will be a giant wall-sized Missy poster in the sealed DWM Xmas issue. I’m sure I’ll be very cross if there isn’t.

    Missy & the Cybermen burning the graves of Earth, with burn in the computery sense of a very very naughty person burning a CD or DVD. It seems at odds with what’s been shown previously, stealing the dead from out of time. but a typical Master Plan as Tansy said.

    According to today’s BBC red button news, “Several viewers” (i.e. A few, or Not as many as with BBC Bake Off’s Baked Alaska outrage) have complained to the BBC about the mention of cremation in front of children on a children’s TV show for children which has nothing whatever to say about the real world and shouldn’t either. This could go in one of two ways next weekend:

    Option A: the Cybermen burn the graves of pets to make cybermats, Mark Gatiss falls off his sofa laughing, Moffat gets slapped wrist from BBC.

    Option B: the Cybermen are depicted specifically targeting the graves of the dead of WW1, on a sci-fi fantasy show, an hour before the BBC’s annual broadcast of highlights of the Festival of Remembrance from the Royal Albert Hall. “But!” cries Moffat, “the destruction of all that is sanctified & holy to humanity is *implicit* in every single episode about the end of the world, this is just making it explicit, I mean we’re all grownups here” as he is removed from his office, and the position of DW Showrunner following a two-week campaign by the Daily Mail.

    Neither option, I hope.

    Final thoughts: Sherlock’s Lara “Adler” Pulver & Andrew “Moriarty” Scott for next Doctor & the Rani, either way round!!! Thanks to Liz for giving a shout out to the Dyson Sphere, vastly star-system sized solar energy collector, posited by physicist Freeman Dyson in 1960 as a possible astronomical indicator to signs of alien life. When I wiki’ed Freeman Dyson, I found his quote about religion:

    “I am neither a saint nor a theologian. To me, good works are more important than theology.”

    Sums it all up, really.

    • Bill Woodrow said:

      I do so love the Star Trek Next Gen ep with Scottys’ return and the Dyson Sphere. A lot of fun that one.

      • Richard S. said:

        Ooh, yes, Relics, forgot about that one, excellent Geordi/Scotty team-up, almost a next generational bromance, if not actual shipping.

        Still can’t understand why people would think Missy was Tasha Yar of the Papal Mainframe… I mean Tasha Lem from the Borg Cube… Or something… Latest web news: Yar still at the top of Google predictive search results for the name Tasha, with Lem in second place. Shamefully, I think I’d have to agree with that.

    • James said:

      “Missy & the Cybermen burning the graves of Earth, with burn in the computery sense of a very very naughty person burning a CD or DVD.”

      It was all the graves of planet Earth are about to give birth, not get burnt.

  14. I am SO looking forward to listening to your podcast because I keep going back and forth between loving and hating Missy being the Master. I almost want Missy to just be Missy, she’s so fabulous in her own right. Loved the Clara / Doctor scene. Didn’t care that they missed the obvious “he can just snap his fingers.”

  15. James C said:

    The wait until Verity drops on Thursday (Oz time) kills me every week!

    A few brief thoughts…

    Keys: An easy fix. You need to have a key on you or be otherwise associated with an existing key for the finger click to work. The keyless entry on my car works more or less like that (though not with the finger click, more’s the pity!).

    The Cyber reveal: I think I fall into the dumbest of the dumb category – I was waiting for the Cybermen but still did not tweak until the doors closed and the big musical cue kicked in. I don’t feel too bad though as on second viewing, I noticed that the circles in the 3W logo are only just connected – different from the overlapping teardrop of the Cyber-eye. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it!

    3W: I found the discussion about cremation to be very confronting indeed. With no sense of where the episode was going, this long scene was by a comfortable margin the darkest thing I’ve ever seen in Doctor Who. It was suggesting as a truth one of the most horrible things that I can imagine, and I didn’t think that the subsequent debunking made it clear that it wasn’t a thing. Thinking about it now I can rationalise most of it away – for example Seb’s comment after hearing a scream that someone was an organ donor is all part of the mind game he was playing with Danny. At the time though I was so disturbed by the cremation discussion that it dampened my enjoyment of the rest of the episode. So I was glad to hear in the podcast that most of this went over the heads of your very literate young children – but I think I am still Mary Whitehouse watching Deadly Assassin on this.

    Missy: perfectly fine, but I didn’t care that much really (see above, perhaps). She won’t truly be the Master until we hear a voiceover chuckle as she steps into her TARDIS.

  16. My thoughts on the Mistress/Master:

    Master Missy is trolling both the Doctor and the viewer with her use of gendered identifiers.

    For some forty years the Master has been identifying as male, and a great many of Missy’s comments and behaviors can be viewed as a former male camping up the “lady act” while she drop hints about who she really is. Master Missy clearly enjoys role play, considering the amount of it she does in this episode, and the amount done in her previous forms, so her using gendered identifiers could be seen as nothing more than the mocking set up for the final punch line of her cosmic joke.

    I just hope this doesn’t turn into a bait and switch, which does seem highly unlikely. Moffat’s long game build up to this reveal was so measured and methodical, I cannot see him retracting it and making Missy into an all new nutty threat to the Doctor.

  17. Loved the energy of this cast-perfectly matched my own enthusiasm for the episode!
    A couple of my thoughts…
    I think the post-it notes are evidence of Clara having completed Step 4 of her TARDIS Recovery Program (Make a searching and fearless inventory of all of our time-warping and the lying we have done about it), and is embarking on Step 5 (Admit to ourselves and the person we have been duping about the exact nature of our traveling. That, in fact, we HAVE traveled to the end of time and space and back, and found ourselves in numerous life-threatening situations, and not said squat about it.)

    Like or don’t like his plot choices, Moffat’s writing is brilliant. Look how carefully he has brought Clara and the Doctor full-circle (hee, hee, hee). In Deep Breath, Clara stayed with Twelve because Eleven asked her to. She was skeptical, scared and turned-off by Twelve’s cold, abandoning behavior. Yet, she stayed. Clara’s love and commitment to the Doctor transcended his transformation.

    In Dark Water, the beginning of the end, we find their roles reversed. In her grief and devastation over Danny, Clara’s control-freakness has reached maniacal proportions. Despite her betrayal, the Doctor’s love for Clara transcends her bout of insanity, and he stays. This is one of the true love stories of Doctor Who. Bravo, Mr. Moffat. This is one of the great love stories of Doctor Who.

    Michelle Gomez nailed the Master perfectly. In fact, her twisted, evil, sarcastic, belligerent posture towards the Doctor is made even more compelling by the gender switch. The kiss is so very Masteresque, I am surprised she didn’t make that choice when she was a he.

    As always, thanks for all the time and effort you into to the podcast-I enjoy listening to you every time.

  18. Henrik said:

    Hmm. I like the episode?

    I was skittish watching it. I always go in pretty excited, but with ‘Kill The Moon’ and ‘In The Forest Of The Night’ fresh in my mind, I don’t trust the show. What I’m suffering from is a trepidation of sorts and one quite different from when Russel T. Davies was doing his over the top silly-vaganzas. I don’t sit down to watch thinking I might get to see a camp melodramatic spectacular that might not be to my taste but thinking it’s possible that the writer, and ultimately the show runner, might not have bothered to tell a believable whole story.
    And this is from someone who thought that the scene in ‘Time Of The Doctor’ with Lem in which all the “loose ends” were tied up was redundant.
    I can add up the bits that are implied myself just fine, it’s just that lately the bits don’t just not add up but aren’t even meant to be added up. We’re just supposed to turn our brains off and let the show happen. ‘Robot Of Sherwood’ I would’ve taken in stride. ‘Kill The Moon’ started to worry me but two is a coincidence. ‘In The Forest Of The Night’ has me now unable to relax and just enjoy a season finale written by my favourite ‘Doctor Who’ writer.

    So that’s my mindset going in. I’m tetchy. Hopeful and excited, but slightly on edge.

    But I think I quite liked it.

    My one niggling concern, the bit I’m not sure if it adds up, is the connection between the dead bodies and the backups in the matrix. That’s baloney, right?
    The only reason there’s an afterlife to begin with is because the Mistress is making herself a Cyberman army.
    They don’t actually still have any connection to their corpses , right?
    That’s to motivate the deceased to choose life without emotion, because I guess the Cybermen want to be right about their life choices and have that confirmed more than they want to fill their ranks maybe. Look how awful emotions can be why don’t you join us in deleting them or something.
    My point is that the sensation of having horrible stuff happen to the body is all in their digitised minds.

    Phantom pains.

    Hopefully.

    I know it shouldn’t bug me. It’s a niggle. But after this series the sting of every new little niggle is hitting flesh already sensitive from a giant volume of really horribly unnecessary niggles and it’s adding up.

    The rest is definitely absolutely great. Clara breaking down and the Doctor being there for her. I didn’t even think it odd (I’ve heard many podcasts question this) why the Doctor and Clara didn’t think to open the TARDIS by finger snap without keys because I figure opening the door is different to unlocking it hence the need for a key even if you don’t intend to use the door handle.
    The Mistress might still be a bit too wacky nuts but she still seems less so than Simms’ take. The Cybermen are really great and the staggered reveals are fantastic. The whole episode is tense. After a while I too forgot the fact, that I knew and which was clear from last week’s trailer, that the Cybermen were going to be involved.

    The episode is good.

    I’m still concerned that I’ll be let down next week.

    But not because of the history of Moffat two-parters. When has he not stuck the landing on a two part story?
    ‘The Doctor Dances’? ‘Forest of the Dead’? ‘Flesh and Stone’? ‘The Big Bang’? ‘The Day of the Moon’?
    Are we counting ‘Let’s Kill Hitler’ as part two to ‘A Good Man Goes To War’ and are we for some reason pretending that isn’t an all time classic on title alone?

    • In my mind pretty much all of those qualify as not-sticking-the-landing. “Let’s Kill Hitler” especially.

      • Henrik said:

        Huh.

        I love pretty much all of them.

        Maybe not ‘Forest Of The Dead’. Perhaps because the entire time they are just standing around in the same room in the Library and doing very little just as they do in the previous episode. I’m a big fan of making part two fundamentally different from part one.

        ‘Flesh And Stone’, taken together with ‘Time Of Angels’, is probably (I haven’t carefully ranked them all) in my top ten DW stories ever.

        It’s got my favourite Doctor and two of my favourite companions, does something new and scary with a returning but not yet old and overused villain, has a fantastic cliffhanger that is resolved quickly in a great way, has the death scene with father Octavian, it ends with a clever solution that was set up right at the start of part one but still comes as a bit of a surprise and it seriously picks up the season arc with the crack way before I think anyone really expected it and does so by properly tying it into the story in those two episodes in a way that matters both to the arc and to the angel two-parter. Oh, and I remember the witty banter between the Doctor and his wife and his mother-in-law just becoming more and more panicked and the banterers become increasingly irritated as the story progresses until they’re all quite cross and shouty and then the angels are sucked away.

        I guess it’s like that old saying: “Smaken är som baken”.

        What is it about them that ends with a wobble? Is it a different misstep every time or more of a general theme to the resolutions that doesn’t quite land? Is it the very sudden shift in everything from tone to time and location that often happens between the end of part one and the beginning of part two, of which ‘Let’s Kill Hitler’ is probably the most egregious offender?

  19. lapetitemaisonbijoux said:

    Danny’s death left me strangely cold. I just didn’t connect emotionally with Clara’s grief, which is odd, because normally that sort of scene would leave me in bits. I think that because so much of their relationship has developed offscreen, I don’t really believe in them as a couple who are deeply in love. Also, I am sort of assuming that, as we know from Listen that Danny fathers a child (we do know that, right?), he must be saved in some way. Unless Clara is already pregnant, and that’s what she was steeling herself to tell him at the start of the episode?

    • I’m going with the theory at the end of your post (whether or not Danny is saved). Clara is, after all, described by the Doctor as being “quite the mess of chemicals”.

    • Squibby said:

      I believe Clara is pregnant.

      The last post it on her bookshelf was “3 months”, she was going to tell Danny something good, bad and wonderful (presumably how she could be 3 months pregnant only days after sleeping with him thanks to her time travelling), the Doctor scanned her and said she was a “hormonal mess” and then helped her. He also wouldn’t let her use a sleep patch… perhaps they’re not good for pregnant women.

      • Holy cow, this possibility had not occurred to me. Maybe because we’ve done the pregnant companion plot so recently (not implying all pregnancies are the same; just saying as a plot point). Hm. That would be quite the wrinkle – and, as you both point out, kind of hidden in plain sight, with the sticky note and the “mess of chemicals” line, which is very much the Moffat way.

      • I didn’t think of this either. Man, I wasn’t picking up on anything this episode! I’d passed off the “mess of chemicals” comment as referring to the grief, but this makes a lot of sense.

      • It would also leave the door open to Danny really and truly dying, and yet the timeline of his and Clara’s descendant Orson (if indeed he is) intact. That would be sad, but also very Moffat-like.

    • I’ve been thinking we’re going to say a final goodbye to the quietly tragic Danny, and Clara’s going to be found to be pregnant which will solve future paradox and give rise to a mini-Danny or ten, which will result in a bittersweet ending. She’ll leave now or will have to leave soon, because she will have a baby to care for, and morning sickness aka life vomit is so unscifi.

      So Moffaty if this is the case – so can we just leave women’s reproductive systems as plot device alone for a bit? Also, marriage? (She was totally going to propose to him, that thing about last person she’ll ever say “love” to.) According to Moffat though, family and hetronormality is the ultimate adventure, we should console ourselves as we watch the fantastical.

  20. The sequence where Missy claims to be a robot reminded me of the “android” Master in Scream of the Shalka. There was also a strange sense to the interactions between the Doctor and the Master in Scream of the Shalka which would serve to reinforce the “boyfriend” comment made by Missy earlier in the series.

  21. sostorm said:

    I wasn’t that fond of it watching the episode but I’ve let it grow and with a rewatch and the Verities I really like it! Damn it. It’s a pretty perfect Master. I really hope they keep her. Drug her and tug her somewhere maybe. Lock her up, then we’ll know she’ll be coming back. I’m leaning towards that it’s way too good to let her go.

    I loved that one of the post-it notes just said Jenny but I found Clara’s conversation with Danny to be very odd. Why does she say that he’ll be the last person to hear her say I love you? She’s admitted she wants kids. It seems like an really odd thing to say. I’m a bit intrigued about what’s going to happen to Danny. If they don’t bring him back Clara gets a chance to ask about Oswald and all that. I really hope she’s not already pregnant. I would love for him to come back as an augmented human. Gah, I really want a future companion.

    Much like other I’m having a hard time connecting with the Clara/Danny love scenes. It just feels like they haven’t shown enough of them being in love together for it to be gut wrenching. With Rory/Amy you felt their love and devotion in every scene which is why their end(s) is so heartbreaking.

    Rewatching it was so heartbreaking in the Doctor/Clara scene. You can see when he catches up on what she’s doing and it’s breaking his heart.

    The master was so enjoyable. Just toying the crap out of the Doctor. Totally faking a teary breakdown in order to have the doctors attention on the tank she’s standing in front of just as the cyberman is revealed, she couldn’t very well have him miss that, now could she? That was one of her best planned moments.

    • Paul A. said:

      I’m pretty sure Clara just meant the last person to hear her say “I love you” in the specific way she was saying it to Danny, which she’d just taken some effort to clarify was a particularly meaningful thing. Other kinds of “I love you”s are still fair game.

  22. James said:

    All Verities should be issued with a cigarillo case so, if you see one and say hello, you can be offered a jelly baby.

  23. It occurs to me that there’s a heavy whiff of ‘Revelation of the Daleks’ to this story too. Again we have a mausoleum where the dead are harvested to make an army of iconic baddies by one of the Doctor’s oldest enemies!

  24. Thank you to Tansy for your “happy thing”… I now worked out why I recognized the actor playing Alfred in Gotham…. Now back to listening to the podcast !!!

    • OMG somehow I had missed and/or forgotten this vital thing MUST WATCH GOTHAM NOW

    • Other Sean Pertwee goodness can be found in the early Cadfael tele-movies (as the hot sheriff) and in the final episode of the BBC Musketeers as a character called Saracen, but whom I have since only referred to as ‘Sean Pertwee in eyeliner.’

  25. Squibby said:

    Another wonder podcast.

    Re Danny, I think he’s not coming back alive but may come back as a cyberman of sorts. Did you notice that his hair and beard is cut to match the indent shaped on a cyberman head? My theory … Danny is Handles.

    Also, if the Matrix piece includes all the dead people does that nean it includes all the Impossible Girl Claras?

    I’m assuming from all the evidence that Clara is pregnant.

    Oh, and Dr Skarosa… Davros? Or Dalek Clara?

  26. I liked the episode. I didn’t love it. Danny’s death didn’t do it for me one way or another and while I got Clara’s reaction, I thought it went slightly overboard. I also didn’t for a second feel any suspense to the scene where Clara throws the 7 rings into Modor…..I mean keys into the lava. We have seen the TARDIS doors open with a snap of the fingers. It was a intense moment that just didn’t completely work for me although I loved the Doctor’s reaction to her about how he still cared for her even with this betrayal.

    MIssy as the Master was something I had anticipated since there was so much speculation on the matter. I don’t know how I feel about it. I don’t love it. I don’t hate it. It’s change and I guess that’s what Doctor Who does. Change things. I hope it’s kind of explained why the Master changed genders. WIll I be mad if they don’t explain it? No, although I would like to know. I guess I’ll just wait to see how this story ends. I did like the inclusion of the Cybermen though.

    • James C said:

      Assuming you need a key in your pocket fixes the finger snapping conundrum (more on this further up…)

  27. […] the Verity! Podcast, Deb commented that the Doctor forgiving Clara made her think of Christianity, and unconditional […]

  28. Maureen You said:

    To all the lovely ladies,
    I`m assuming that now Doctor Who isn’t on our TVs week by week you will be looking for themes to discuss. After watching Deep Water i’m wondering if the Missy,Doctor kiss was the first time we have seen a sexual assault on Doctor Who. Could I offer the suggest of a discussion of the various Doctor kisses. Is this just a new who phenomina? Please note I am not thinking about hanky panky in the tardis but the many and various kisses on screen.
    Thanks Maureen You

  29. Harriet said:

    Not much comment on Danny’s sacrifice at the end. Interesting that the Doctor, in the first episode, says that he has made mistakes and that he needs to do something about that. I was expecting to see an episode with some sort of re-writing of time, but nothing so far. But Danny the soldier, held in such low esteem by the Doctor, does make it right by giving back the child he killed, at great cost to himself (and Clara). Perhaps this was meant to contrast the human response vs. the alien (Doctor).

  30. Harriet said:

    Oops, posted under the wrong episode! Moderator, can you move this comment to Death in Heaven?

    • Now that our ‘cast about “Death in Heaven” is out, and there’s a good chance everyone’s seen it, I’ve let these out of moderation. Sadly, WordPress doesn’t provide an out-of-the-box tool for moving comments from one post to another. But as it’s a 2-parter, I think your comments are relevant here. 🙂

      ^E

  31. […] think beyond that. I’m amused by Tansy Rayner Roberts’s fanon from the Verity! podcast, episode 59 (at time […]

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