Six Smart Women Discussing Doctor Who

verityepisode127We start our year of love and lasts with the last (regular) appearance with one of the most underrated new Who companions, Martha! Join Deb, Erika, Katrina, and Lynne as we talk about Martha as a companion and how much we all love (or learn to love) how she said goodbye to the Doctor. We also spend a good deal of time talking about why.

How do you feel about Martha and her send-off? Let us know in the comments!

Also covered:

Download or listen now (runtime 1:25:35) 

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Comments on: "Episode 127 – Goodbye Martha Jones" (18)

  1. Reblogged this on Confessions of a Curator, Editor, Geek and commented:

    New Verity!

  2. I was wondering what your feelings were about this? I’m depressed about the lack of respect Moffat shows his fans and characters.

    http://www.dailydot.com/via/steven-moffat-sexism-sherlock-doctor-who/

    • My reaction is that the person who wrote that article had an axe to grind. I clicked on several of the links in the article, and what he actually said when taken in context bore very little resemblance to the way it was characterized in that article. I don’t think Steven Moffat is perfect by any stretch, but clearly, neither is the “journalist” who wrote that piece.

    • Sarah said:

      I know that I read a rebuttal to that article on Tumblr that was better-written and more intelligent than that offended “journalist” managed. Every other thing I read that mentions Moffat has an axe to grind. Kneejerk demonizing of Moffat is very popular. You don’t have to believe everything you read, though. (No, he’s not perfect. During Matt Smith’s run, I was wishing I could see another showrunner. Then came Peter Capaldi and the acting distracted me from whatever it is that’s consistently annoyed me about modern DW’s writing.)

  3. Russell T Davies’ writing is never condescending when it comes to religion. Look at Gridlock and look at the variation on the end times and Doctor-as-saviour theme in The Last of the Timelords. The whole thing is preposterous, but very, very entertaining and believable in its context. The Doctor being the Master’s prisoner for a year, and turned into a shrunken pet is a very daring and shocking idea. This is only series three, remember. These are new takes on the Doctor Who narrative.

    It takes an Atheist who has no problem showing a certain respect forgenuine faith to create such a sensitive narrative. But, yeah, the Martha/Doctor relationship was a bit too much. But the Doctor was compensating big time, feeling guilty, after the horrors or the time war. I didn’t like that side of the Doctor’s character development but it is believable.

    The series three finale, to me, was just incredible.

    • ccarol said:

      I think he genuinely _tries_ to be sensitive and respectful in the way he uses religious themes, but I don’t think he always succeeds. Gridlock, for instance, feels annoyingly heavy-handed to me, and RTD’s obsession with Doctor-as-Jesus metaphors borders on offensive at times.

  4. Elinor said:

    Jo Grant would and DID put herself in danger FOR the Doctor (“No, he’s a good man! Kill me not him!”), so it’s not just Jamie.

  5. Elinor said:

    oh, and there’s already a book about when Martha walks the earth, but it’s possible it covers little enough for Big Finish to fill some of that gap as well.

    • terminuspodcast said:

      Yep, I was just about to mention the book about Martha’s YTNW (Year That Never Was). It’s called ‘The Story of Martha’ and is in book form and audio form. IIRC, there was even an unabridged and abridged version (its been a while since I read them, but Martha is my favorite, so I loved it when it came out). I would still love a Big Finish series, too, though!

      P.S. Oh, and BTW, Martha *was* actually engaged to Dr Tom Milligan (mentioned both in the Sontaran 2-parter and during her stint in Torchwood), but that engagement/marriage (I think she was actually married to him off-camera one point — in fact, I think they were mentioned to be on their honeymoon during the events of TW’s “Children of Earth”) was dropped out of nowhere, as RTD wanted to end things on a Smith and Jones joke for her and Mickey instead. That was definitely something that always makes me sad for Martha/Freema — not only did the Doctor throw her under the bus most of the time, but The Powers That Be didn’t seem to care very much for her either. Which is weird, but whatever. #teammarthaforever

  6. terminuspodcast said:

    I really love these episodes in terms of Martha’s story, but the barbs from the Doctor to her almost sting more here to me than in any other story. I say that because early on, I could sort of see him being a bit callous to her as they barely know each other (not that I approve of that either), but this late in the game, after they’ve been through a lot together, him to still be treating her poorly just rings oddly (she is a friend after all and he’s treated enemies better). Such as moments in ‘Sound of Drums’ where he says the line about how the perception filter works by comparing it to ‘when you fancy someone and they don’t even know you exist’– I just can’t believe there is *any* way that he is oblivious to things when he is saying that to Martha in particular and, as a result, it is very cruel. (I only get through that part by thinking when Jack says ‘You too, huh?’, he’s actually saying ‘You wanna slap him, too, huh?’ instead of commiserating about their unrequited love).

    But the weirdest part of that whole anti-Martha thing for me in this story, was when the Master *himself* even totally put down Martha by comparing her to Rose (‘Such a disappointment, this one. Days of old, Doctor, you had companions who could absorb the time vortex. This one’s useless.’) WHICH MAKES NO SENSE for the Master. I mean, the Master doesn’t care about the companion’s accomplishments (he basically thinks they’re pets) and, personally, I find an active thing like walking the Earth and surviving for a year on the run more hardcore than a passive thing like absorbing the time vortex, but whatever. Still, I do totally love that Martha totally OWNS him in that scene despite the abuse, but…it still was unnecessary, IMO. I guess he was just trying to push her buttons and maybe he *somehow* knew the Rose-comparisons stung (not that I have any idea how he had any clue about Rose anyway)? Yeah…it’s just felt to me like a very hand-of-the-author-trying-to-remind-us-how-much-more-awesome-Rose-was-than-Martha moment. But then that was going on a lot in fandom at the time, so I was admittedly pretty sensitive.

  7. terminuspodcast said:

    Oh, and I have to admit the one reason I wanted Martha to return was to see the Doctor apologize to her for his behavior. I mean, if you look at his face when she’s leaving in ‘LotTL’ (when they are hugging) you can see his regret and even in ‘Partners in Crime’, he acknowledges to Donna how much a jerk he was (albeit is an overly dramatic way, as he says something like how he ‘ruined half her life’ and, sure, Martha was sad/annoyed, but her life was far from ruined!).

    So, I had high hopes. But the Doctor pretty much never tells Martha how much he’s sorry or even how awesome she is TO HER FACE and it’s really sad. Trust me, I wrote and read SO MUCH fix-it fanfic because of that back then. I really, really wanted that apology, but I doubt that the Tenth Doctor (or the show) would have ever acknowledged it so openly. But at least in my head (and in some fanfic), I feel like future Doctors would be SO MUCH nicer to Martha. Hell, I think any Doctor other than Ten would be nice to her, because she’s so awesome! 😉

    • Ok. Now I want SO BAD for Martha to return sometime before the 12th Doctor leaves. He appreciates people who are competent. He actually pays attention to them! I think he would totally pay attention to Martha, and she would finally get the apology she deserves. 12 may not be great with emotions, but he has learned a lot and I think he would know enough to do that for her, even if he needed a note card to do it. 😉

      • terminuspodcast said:

        Erika — I think 12 and Martha meeting would be SO AWESOME. They would be great together! I once wrote a little fic with 11 and Martha where there’s not really an apology, but better treatment (http://archiveofourown.org/works/1535411), but that was ages ago before 12 had even come onto the scene. I should definitely write one with 12 sometime, but Martha returning on the show itself would be even better (especially if Freema has her amazing ‘Sense8’ hairstyle). ❤

  8. Laurie said:

    Just basking in the martha love. I love kat’s ending with the drums or was that just me.

  9. James m said:

    I think the person who wrote the article dishing Steven Moffat, and fan-plaining his motives could be described as a w-hooligan.

  10. I think Deb (?) made a particularly good point about the way the shows are structured. A typical story construction in the old show might start “here is an alien plot: we’ll put the Doctor and companions into it, and see how they react”. Character moments would arise out of the things the characters were required to do. Now I think the beginning of the story is more likely to be “let’s explore this emotional angle”, and the alien menace is carefully set up like a trolley problem to ensure that these particular emotional buttons are the ones that are being pushed.

    • The old show was an adventure serial, first and foremost. But modern audiences expect more dramatic depth, and if New Who hadn’t supplied that, it would have been cancelled pretty quickly. It’s just a pity that most of that drama has been generated by establishing certain tensions between the Doctor and his companion. I have to wonder if that would still be the case if we had a female show-runner, or at least more female writers.

  11. I was going to mention that Jo Grant seemed to be constantly putting her life on the line to save the Doctor, but Elinor beat me to it!

    Anyhoo, thanks for another entertaining and thought-provoking podcast. Your 2017 theme seems like a fruitful one and I’m sure you’ll squeeze all the feels out of it. Keep up the good work! 🙂

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